Monday, July 6, 2015

AoS Rules Question, please help!

So heres the scene. I've got 40 bloodtrainconductors and he's got 40 silverphlems. I'm riding an imaginary horse, but he's got a bigger mustache. On top of that, I've already made about 20 different animal noises which he countered by breaking wind at the exact moment his dice were thrown out the window (that rule is so OP). But we almost forgot, that I brought my imaginary friend to the game, who's been looking me straight in the eye all game. Do my bloodtrainconductors get frenzy this turn?


Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmail said...

*Technically* your bloodtrainconductors get Frenzy next turn, but only if you speak aloud a haiku to Khorne first.

Tim said...

Does that have to be in Japanese or can it be any language? The rules are unclear.

Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmail said...

Best I can tell from reading the rules, the RAW is that it may be in any language but that sure seems in opposition to the spirit of the rule. I think it should have to be in Japanese, and if you think otherwise it's obviously because you literally can't read and are just a power gamer who doesn't want to spend money like the rest of us have to on learning a new language.

Tim said...

OMG this game is going to be so damn popular!!!! Well done, GW, well done.

John Stiening said...

It seems to be working well in the GW stores. I personally like the rules as well.

SandWyrm said...


Tim said...

Hey John, I haven't tried the rules yet, but I was reading over the "beard" rules on Dakka and I was just shocked at how stupid these were. I mean, its kind of insulting for them to think wargamers like talking to their models, staring each in the eye, and pretending to ride imaginary horses. I get that war games are inherently immature, but seriously? Do we have to take it to this extreme?

John Stiening said...

The humorous stuff harkens back to the origins of warhammer. It was all funny in the beginning. Regardless, I read on Bols that only the dead models got the wonky rules. The new armies don't have them for now. A lot of people were having fun with it in the GW springfield store. It was kind of refreshing. We should give it a go sometime. (I'd rather fight over a normal looking village than one of those random terrain setups though!)

GW has a whole summer of releases coming for this, so I would expect a lot of additions to the rules. They've apparently said the narrative campaign book would have non-points based army building. I am really interested to see what their model is. Tournament rules are apparently also part of the expansions.

Tim said...

John, thats good to hear. I really would like GW to succeed in this, but I'm sorry, the silly rules just turn me off.
I'd really like to stop by and play a demo...but if I have to grow a mustache to use a model's special rule, I'm sorry thats where I draw the line.

People claiming this is GW going back to its roots are wrong IMO. I have yet to see this backed up by any excerpts from the rules of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I've been in the hobby since '93. I started with Warhammer 3rd edition. There weren't any rules like this in that edition--none. Humor was a part of GW back in those days, its true it was, but these beard rules really have no precedent. I get that stepping out of comfort zone is good for you but riding an imaginary horse? Talking to your models? Comparing mustaches?

I'm just not feeling it.

SandWyrm said...

Gotta back up Tim here.

Been in the hobby since '89. There was a little bit of silly stuff in WFB like the Goblobber, a Dwarf catapult firing tied up Goblins that once (through a series of ridiculously lucky panic rolls) caused half of a friend's army to rout on my first shot of the game. But that was nothing at all like what this "game" brings to the table.

My FLGS owner, swallowing the Kool-Aid, claimed that GW invented "points" for units/armies (sounds like a GW Rep talking point), and so it was OK for them to innovate something new.

I said "Fine. But what, precisely, are they going to use instead to balance games and make them fair?"

He had nothing.

Another store owner in town is "Working with his Rep" on a balancing system. Which means that GW doesn't have anything either. Just crazy happy talk and empty promises that tell you whatever you want to hear.

If this was a one-off stupid intro game to try and reel in some more kids, then fine. But the fact that GW now has a SigMarine statue in front of their headquarters means that they're all-in on this nonsense. This is what they think will save the company. Not balance, not quality rules, but funny faces and farting noises.

Tim said...

Balance is another issue altogether. Thats a huge mistake for a number of reasons. Though my guess is that points values or some other balancing mechanism will be introduced soon.

As to the "beard" rules, I think I'm fixating on them too much. They are, in fact, a small part of the rules. I find them hilarious but not in the way GW intended them to be funny.

Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmail said...

Been said, but the silliness of the game was in the models themselves on occasion. Very similar to how Malifaux has "funny" factions or masters whose fluff is more entertaining in how they end up causing havoc, Fantasy was always similar ... you had the "serious" armies like the Empire, but you also had the lolz for things like Goblins and Orcs, Nurgle, etc. Humor aside, the lethality and playability were the same.

Can't say GW games have ever been the creme de la creme, but there's a big difference between rules where the flavor text for the NAME of the rule is funny but the functional application of it is objective / independent of players having to know each others' sense of humor ... and where the actual functionality of the rule is doing something utterly ridiculous.

Like with Tim, my biggest turn off is not the points (I can figure that out with people to play reasonable pick-up games), but the inanery of "make a guttural roar but use no words of actual English!"

I guess we all have our boundaries.

I observe games like Malifaux and others where player divides disappear and people don't fight about the rules or how the game should be played. In those games, they also have campaign and narrative rules, but a GM can ALWAYS make the game different in a GM'ed group or other sort of narrative game in any way they want. The rules should still be structured in such a way that two strangers can show up and play a game out of the box without a lot of fuss. GW is intentionally moving AWAY from this ... intentionally moving more and more to a game that REQUIRES previous awareness of who you are playing, planning and organization, and more.

If they release a set of wonderful rules for tournaments, campaigns, army construction, and more showing they've learned lessons that for 30 years they've literally constantly ignored, I'll be pleased and shocked. They've got 0 benefit of the doubt to work with, however, so I think it's less reasonable to assume something magical is coming and just not out yet ... than it is to assume they've simply released the next step in the path of game changes evinced by 40K since 6th edition - less rules, more player fighting, more of GW openly blaming the players for anything unenjoyable, and taking 0 responsibility themselves.

House rules are AWESOME in any game. Requiring House Rules to even play it at all is now.

SandWyrm said...

As someone who was burned in the past by buying into Warmaster and Inquisitor based on hope for later support, I'd advise against assuming anything.

What GW has released is what they wanted to release. This is the game.

Points could have been added via a lazy copy/paste from the existing WFB army books. So they either think points don't matter to their LOL-play, or they didn't want to do the work of properly working out a new costing system. Either way, it's the sales reps and the store owners who have been left to figure out a solution.

Tim said...

Mike, totally spot on.

Sandwyrm, its too early to say definitively that no more core rules will be be coming. but you're right these rules leave me with the impression that the game designers spend about 1, maybe 2, afternoons writing them and testing them. Notice how nearly every special rule is some form of a re-roll or a +1 to this or that?

SandWyrm said...

I completely agree with Mike on this.

This is just one more (IMO fatal) step in a direction that GW has taken ever since 8th Edition Fantasy, and it comes from the company leadership having no idea how to evaluate the quality of their own products.

SandWyrm said...

Tim, you're right. I believe it comes from models being physical things that the execs can look at and go "Cool!", while they can't be arsed to sit down and read/comprehend a rulebook. So rules development budgets keep getting cut, while they'll spend whatever it takes to design nice looking models for a set.

As for core rules, these are it. Anything else, by definition, would be supplementary.

Cobalt Cannon said...

I can see what Games Workshop is trying to do here, and it's a gamble.
They are trying to attract new players to their games. The problem with all games workshop games is that the rules are confounded. The system they have (of hitting, checking to see if you wound, rolling for who knows what save applies at the time Armor or cover, and what does this toughness stuff have to do with anything, check your tables) is difficult for new players to comprehend in a time when the new generation are all sociopaths addicted to the easy access, pick up and put down medium of video games, and the internet.

Games workshop is gambling that they can keep their zealot fan base, and grab this new generation of players by severely dumbing down their systems, and adding in the features of the new generations culture, which is fart jokes, tattoos, mustaches, irreverence for everything, and drunken vulgarity devoid of respect for anything and everyone. It might work, except for one thing. These types of people don't want to spend time painting anything. They have 15 second attention spans, competing only with gold fish for mental superiority.
Mark my words now, this will happen to Warhammer 40k also if this gamble pays off.

Here are your simple choices:
1. Keep playing, and use the new rules.
2. Keep playing and use the old rules.
3. use the miniatures you have with another rule set (My suggestion, and advice, because Screw games Workshop anyway!)
4. Dump those schmucks and play the many better games out there. By better, I mean, better designed, having new concepts in their rules that play better, or are just more fun. You guys probably know what those games are.

RULE OF CAPITALISM: IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRODUCT, DON'T BUY IT! Speak with your cash, and give it to the company that you feel really deserves it, or just save it for retirement.

SandWyrm said...

@Cobalt Cannon

Might as well plug my project then, as I'm working to provide an option for your 3rd point.

Cobalt Cannon said...

In a follow up to what SandWyrm posted and I posted, here are some alternative rules for you to try. These are free to download.

Also take a look at Gruntz which can work for absolutely anything. The book is only $18, and it's creation is also a great story like what SandWyrm is doing. If you watch Robin Fitton's youtube videos, you can see how he developed the game over years.

The third system to look at is by Ambush Alley games. This is the most realistic system I have seen and accounts for the unexpected as well such as weather that moves into the battlefield suddenly or stray artillery landing in your combat zone from another nearby engagement.

I have purchased Gruntz and Tomorrow's War from Ambush Alley, and they are great systems that in my opinion blow the doors off of anything Games Workshop will ever come up with. Also, if you choose to reduce your scale to the 15mm miniature route, there are many manufacturers out there and you can build an entire force for about $20. This also allows you to reduce your play area to a scale that is much easier to set up, and store (Your wives will love that part). These systems can be played with 28mm just as well.